Sandbox(weapons, powerups, AAs)

One of the main goals of Gold Pro testing is to explore the options of expanding the sandbox. It is our philosophy that having more fair and strategic options available in game will allow skillful players to use intelligence and skill to shine and further increase the skill gap. Variety in gameplay is also more interesting and fun.

We are open to suggestion as at this point there is nothing definitive and we are looking to test and add. Some things to keep in mind when considering the sandbox...
- Redundancy(we don't want many weapons that do the same thing)
- Effectiveness(how effective will it be)
- Role(what purpose will it serve)
To expand on roles I'd like to discuss what roles there are to be filled.
1) Utility weapon - The primary weapon of the sandbox that serves as your "bread and butter" the weapon that you can counter any other weapon with provided a combination of skill and intelligence are applied. Currently the DMR fills this role and it is our hope that on 4sk it is good enough that weapons that have been traditionally to cheap for competitive play will be counterable and strategic. The CEA pistol will be looked at as a possible utility weapon(as well as other roles) when CEA drops.
2) Power Weapons - Timable and controllable weapons that give a definitive advantage in most situations. Ex. Rockets, Grenade Launcher, Sniper, Sword+Sprint. The purpose of power weapons is to promote map movement. Ex. Teams will often have to break a setup to control a power weapon and if not have there setup broken by the power weapon for not securing it.
3) Preferred Pickups - These are weapons that are situational and/or strategically advantageous over the utility weapon but outside of those situations have limited use. This is the primary area looking to be expanded upon. Some options.

- Concussion Rifle - Offers stun mechanic that leaves opponent in a bad position if caught off guard. Perfect shots are fast kill but splash damage is more practical and a slower kill. Applications could include tight areas, offensive pushes, defensive pushes, killing campers(w/splash damage), stopping flag carriers.
- Focus Rifle - Rips shields, good OS counter, teamshot weapon. Overall underpowered against 4sk no bloom DMR.
- Plasma Pistol - Shield ripper, beatdown weapon, charge blast(not practical in many situations). The PP has a unique use which is the charge shot, and the it is not automatic. The other three shield ripping candidates (plasma rifle, plasma repeater, spiker) are all automatic and do not have a charge shot function. Therefore it is likely that the PP, as well as one of the other three could be used.
- Shotgun - CQC weapon. Something that has been lacking in competitive Reach due to an underpowered utility weapon. Including CQC is exciting and promising.
- Sword - Same function as Shotgun but shotgun does it better. Sword is being looked at paired with a Sprint pickup on the map. The two put together are thought to possibly create a preferred power combo that could encourage map movement and strategy. Although it is proving hard to find a way to keep both pickups along side each other due to the unusual respawning mechanic of Armor Abilities.

Armor Abilities: Currently, Jetpacks are in as they add a unique dynamic to gameplay and are very balanced with the amount of noise they make, and how slowly they move in 200% gravity.
Sprint is being looked at at the moment as a replacement for evade. Sprint has been thoroughly tested as a pickup without a sword on the maps and was found to just not be significantly useful.
All other Armor Abilities are currently not being discussed as they have either been proven to not be competitive or serve no significant role. However, we are open to testing them if someone can make a compelling argument for there role in the sandbox.

These are some of the things being looked at. Feel free to discuss your own thoughts/opinions.

- Sword - Same function as Shotgun but shotgun does it better. Sword is being looked at paired with a Sprint pickup on the map. The two put together are thought to possibly create a preferred power combo that could encourage map movement and strategy. Although it is proving hard to find a way to keep both pickups along side each other due to the unusual respawning mechanic of Armor Abilities.

I think this is a huge step in the wrong direction. What makes Halo is standard movement. I think any use of AA's should not be in play when it comes to reach.

Church wrote:

- Sword - Same function as Shotgun but shotgun does it better. Sword is being looked at paired with a Sprint pickup on the map. The two put together are thought to possibly create a preferred power combo that could encourage map movement and strategy. Although it is proving hard to find a way to keep both pickups along side each other due to the unusual respawning mechanic of Armor Abilities.

I think this is a huge step in the wrong direction. What makes Halo is standard movement. I think any use of AA's should not be in play when it comes to reach.

Well first of all it's not in v1. It's just an idea.

We're trying to incorporate AA's as long as they're viable and competitive. And, of course, agreed upon by everyone. (like jetpack) Evade is pretty ridiculous on 120% speed, and sprint isn't very useful. The sword is an interesting CQC power weapon, especially when paired with sprint. So it's an idea to replace evade and add some new dynamics. Timing the sprint pickup and the sword, while controlling both could take a fair amount of skill.

But it's all up in the air right now. It needs testing.

Thanks for your input

Chef Linguini wrote:

Church wrote:

- Sword - Same function as Shotgun but shotgun does it better. Sword is being looked at paired with a Sprint pickup on the map. The two put together are thought to possibly create a preferred power combo that could encourage map movement and strategy. Although it is proving hard to find a way to keep both pickups along side each other due to the unusual respawning mechanic of Armor Abilities.

I think this is a huge step in the wrong direction. What makes Halo is standard movement. I think any use of AA's should not be in play when it comes to reach.

Well first of all it's not in v1. It's just an idea.

We're trying to incorporate AA's as long as they're viable and competitive. And, of course, agreed upon by everyone. (like jetpack) Evade is pretty ridiculous on 120% speed, and sprint isn't very useful. The sword is an interesting CQC power weapon, especially when paired with sprint. So it's an idea to replace evade and add some new dynamics. Timing the sprint pickup and the sword, while controlling both could take a fair amount of skill.

But it's all up in the air right now. It needs testing.

Thanks for your input

See my only problem with this is that it makes the accurate positioning of the person with the sword too random. You dont want to give such a big disadvantage to the other team. For example when a player picks up a sniper, the other team has a general idea of where he is, how far he might move and how they may counter it. Its semi predictable, but it still achieves the purpose of the power up, to breaks setups. The sword + sprint gives the other team too much possible range of distance. How can you fight something if we dont know where it is? It is the same reason we dont like sprint as a starting AA, but now more of a problem IMO.

Still needs to be test tho to be sure.

Good job on the website BTW.

DuckTape4Ever wrote:

Chef Linguini wrote:

Church wrote:

- Sword - Same function as Shotgun but shotgun does it better. Sword is being looked at paired with a Sprint pickup on the map. The two put together are thought to possibly create a preferred power combo that could encourage map movement and strategy. Although it is proving hard to find a way to keep both pickups along side each other due to the unusual respawning mechanic of Armor Abilities.

I think this is a huge step in the wrong direction. What makes Halo is standard movement. I think any use of AA's should not be in play when it comes to reach.

Well first of all it's not in v1. It's just an idea.

We're trying to incorporate AA's as long as they're viable and competitive. And, of course, agreed upon by everyone. (like jetpack) Evade is pretty ridiculous on 120% speed, and sprint isn't very useful. The sword is an interesting CQC power weapon, especially when paired with sprint. So it's an idea to replace evade and add some new dynamics. Timing the sprint pickup and the sword, while controlling both could take a fair amount of skill.

But it's all up in the air right now. It needs testing.

Thanks for your input

See my only problem with this is that it makes the accurate positioning of the person with the sword too random. You dont want to give such a big disadvantage to the other team. For example when a player picks up a sniper, the other team has a general idea of where he is, how far he might move and how they may counter it. Its semi predictable, but it still achieves the purpose of the power up, to breaks setups. The sword + sprint gives the other team too much possible range of distance. How can you fight something if we dont know where it is? It is the same reason we dont like sprint as a starting AA, but now more of a problem IMO.

Still needs to be test tho to be sure.

Good job on the website BTW.

Valid points. But I actually think not knowing where the "sword sprinter" is exactly could be considered a good thing. And it's not worse than having 8 sprinters IMO. Everyone on your team will be tracking the dude.

Tbh though, I'm fine with just using jetpack exclusively.


And thanks man, I've spent a good deal of time on it!

Hologram should be looked at. I would also look into the Focus Rifle. It's a really effective cqb weapon with the shot + beatdown, and is an all around great sheild pealer.

bunniesz23 wrote:Hologram should be looked at.

What do you think the Hologram could add in terms of "competitiveness"?

DaRkPaToU wrote:

bunniesz23 wrote:Hologram should be looked at.

What do you think the Hologram could add in terms of "competitiveness"?

An item on the map that you have to control (always adds competitive value), and you have to be fairly creative with it to actually put it to good use. Also helps as a way to start a push.

bunniesz23 wrote:

DaRkPaToU wrote:

bunniesz23 wrote:Hologram should be looked at.

What do you think the Hologram could add in terms of "competitiveness"?

An item on the map that you have to control (always adds competitive value), and you have to be fairly creative with it to actually put it to good use. Also helps as a way to start a push.

I don't believe that people will care for the hologram. It doesn't seem powerful enough for people to make sure they time the hologram.

Not sure if I'd like to see hologram or not, but it could spice things up.

I think with the faster kill times, the hologram's role as a distraction becomes much more effective. I just don't know if I actually want it in the settings (leaning towards no). I think jet-pack is the perfect AA, because that whole added level of verticality just seems perfect for a power-up. And keeping it simple with just jet-pack just streamlines the settings nicely.

Hologram has gotten quite the bad reputation, but as an avid supporter of its tactical usage, I will attempt to set the record straight by addressing the most common complaints I hear about Hologram.

"It doesn't take any skill."

This is probably the simplest argument against adding anything in the game. Simply put, you do not want to add items into the game that can be used to the maximum efficiency regardless of the player's skill level. There is a clear difference between a bad player with the OS and Camo, and a bad one. I love using "choking" as a good determinant for whether something has competitive merit. It happens all the time with Camo. It's a close game and the player with Camo can seal the deal, but ONLY if he is able to clutch it with sneaky movement to get a back smack. Good players use their skills to successfully flank and punish their opponents while bad players choke and alert their opponents of their location or fail to move without being seen at all. This same difference in utility can be applied to Hologram. A player with Hologram can successfully fake out their opponents and get the jump on them as a result, or they can choke by using it predictably or in a way that they cannot capitalize efficiently on the confusion of their opponents. On top of this, there is also the skill against Hologram that needs to be considered. Just like how it takes a great amount of skill to fend off someone with OS or track down someone with Camo, identifying a Hologram and tracking down the person who sent it out is just as crucial. A team that fails to communicate about a player on the opposing team baiting and switching with Holograms with struggle much more than one that is able to pinpoint the player and shut them down.

"People who use Hologram excessively are not punished, which leads to people 'spamming' Holograms until someone falls for it."

Anyone who is skilled against Holograms knows that the first step to tracking down the user is to simply follow the Hologram. When Hologram was in the MLG settings, it was rarely used or punished properly because it was not used widespread and dealing with it was never a priority in game. As a result, most people do not know how to use or play against it, and there is essentially an underdeveloped metagame for it. It would be like playing Shadowrun for the first time where it may seem like people are just spamming Teleport, or perhaps you've played a fighting game with a move that you first believed was completely useless and it turned out that as you improved it became critical to your success. Someone who spams Holograms will not only ensure their opponents are more aware of the threat of Hologram pushes, but they also give a direct line to their immediately location. Especially without Sprint and Evade in the settings to allow for quick getaways, using a Hologram when it is uncalled for is just going to be effectively calling yourself out to the opponents. A quick example could be someone on Sanctuary. If someone snuck into your Shotgun and then used a Hologram up onto the Flag, all that person as done is alert you that they are in your Shotgun.


"No one will fall for it." / "It is not effective enough to actually help a team accomplish something."

First off, even if this WERE true, then surely if it was included in the settings, people would simply not use it. I made it clear above how using Hologram at all has certain risks, so people wouldn't bother using something with high risk, no rewards. As it is, however, it CAN be very useful. For the briefest moment during the game, you can essentially make your opponents play 4v5. There are numerous ripple effects that can be concocted through clever Hologram usage. Some simple uses I implement all the time (and this is just by myself in non-MLG playlists; an entire team working around a Hologram can be VERY powerful):

Bait and Switch
Very much an "oldest trick in the book" type of move, players have been doing this in all sorts of sports and games for the longest time. It comes about in the form of Hologram when you send a Hologram in one direction to draw your opponent's attention to it, then you push up, catching them off guard. With the new quicker kill times, even just a split second of your opponent being confused can equal death on their part.

Ghost Player
Anyone who's played serious 4v4 knows that communication is absolutely VITAL, and it can be the difference between victory and defeat. Having the other team expend any communication on a player that doesn't even exist can be extremely helpful, and it can lead to them making bad decisions based on that imaginary player. If, for example, you are at your Bon on Sanctuary and send a Hologram over to your Car ramp, the opposing team may decide against pushing up from Snipe to Ring just because they believe a player is over there waiting to light them up. You can even see how this could lead back into the bait and switch because if they decide to try to track down the Hologram at Car, you can push Ring 1 and catch them from behind or any other number of options.

Radar
If you are attempting to feel out the locations of your opponents, Hologram can be a very effective tool. You can essentially confirm locations of players by sending out a Hologram and waiting to see if they shoot it. Let's say you're on Countdown with the other team 3 down and you were thinking about pulling their flag, but you're worried their last guy is on your 3rd watching their flag. Sending out a Hologram as if it were going to pick up the flag can make that player fire or nade, alerting you not to attempt a pull. If your Hologram crosses the room safely, you can assume it's safe to make the pull and proceed with a cap.



Hopefully I've at least opened some eyes to the possibility of Hologram as a competitive pickup and interest someone enough to place a Hologram or two in their settings. I've been in love with Hologram's tactical techniques since release, so I hope to see it get its deserved spot in competitive settings as the tricky and clever pickup I know it to be.

Ender wrote:Hologram has gotten quite the bad reputation, but as an avid supporter of its tactical usage, I will attempt to set the record straight by addressing the most common complaints I hear about Hologram.

"It doesn't take any skill."

This is probably the simplest argument against adding anything in the game. Simply put, you do not want to add items into the game that can be used to the maximum efficiency regardless of the player's skill level. There is a clear difference between a bad player with the OS and Camo, and a bad one. I love using "choking" as a good determinant for whether something has competitive merit. It happens all the time with Camo. It's a close game and the player with Camo can seal the deal, but ONLY if he is able to clutch it with sneaky movement to get a back smack. Good players use their skills to successfully flank and punish their opponents while bad players choke and alert their opponents of their location or fail to move without being seen at all. This same difference in utility can be applied to Hologram. A player with Hologram can successfully fake out their opponents and get the jump on them as a result, or they can choke by using it predictably or in a way that they cannot capitalize efficiently on the confusion of their opponents. On top of this, there is also the skill against Hologram that needs to be considered. Just like how it takes a great amount of skill to fend off someone with OS or track down someone with Camo, identifying a Hologram and tracking down the person who sent it out is just as crucial. A team that fails to communicate about a player on the opposing team baiting and switching with Holograms with struggle much more than one that is able to pinpoint the player and shut them down.

"People who use Hologram excessively are not punished, which leads to people 'spamming' Holograms until someone falls for it."

Anyone who is skilled against Holograms knows that the first step to tracking down the user is to simply follow the Hologram. When Hologram was in the MLG settings, it was rarely used or punished properly because it was not used widespread and dealing with it was never a priority in game. As a result, most people do not know how to use or play against it, and there is essentially an underdeveloped metagame for it. It would be like playing Shadowrun for the first time where it may seem like people are just spamming Teleport, or perhaps you've played a fighting game with a move that you first believed was completely useless and it turned out that as you improved it became critical to your success. Someone who spams Holograms will not only ensure their opponents are more aware of the threat of Hologram pushes, but they also give a direct line to their immediately location. Especially without Sprint and Evade in the settings to allow for quick getaways, using a Hologram when it is uncalled for is just going to be effectively calling yourself out to the opponents. A quick example could be someone on Sanctuary. If someone snuck into your Shotgun and then used a Hologram up onto the Flag, all that person as done is alert you that they are in your Shotgun.


"No one will fall for it." / "It is not effective enough to actually help a team accomplish something."

First off, even if this WERE true, then surely if it was included in the settings, people would simply not use it. I made it clear above how using Hologram at all has certain risks, so people wouldn't bother using something with high risk, no rewards. As it is, however, it CAN be very useful. For the briefest moment during the game, you can essentially make your opponents play 4v5. There are numerous ripple effects that can be concocted through clever Hologram usage. Some simple uses I implement all the time (and this is just by myself in non-MLG playlists; an entire team working around a Hologram can be VERY powerful):

Bait and Switch
Very much an "oldest trick in the book" type of move, players have been doing this in all sorts of sports and games for the longest time. It comes about in the form of Hologram when you send a Hologram in one direction to draw your opponent's attention to it, then you push up, catching them off guard. With the new quicker kill times, even just a split second of your opponent being confused can equal death on their part.

Ghost Player
Anyone who's played serious 4v4 knows that communication is absolutely VITAL, and it can be the difference between victory and defeat. Having the other team expend any communication on a player that doesn't even exist can be extremely helpful, and it can lead to them making bad decisions based on that imaginary player. If, for example, you are at your Bon on Sanctuary and send a Hologram over to your Car ramp, the opposing team may decide against pushing up from Snipe to Ring just because they believe a player is over there waiting to light them up. You can even see how this could lead back into the bait and switch because if they decide to try to track down the Hologram at Car, you can push Ring 1 and catch them from behind or any other number of options.

Radar
If you are attempting to feel out the locations of your opponents, Hologram can be a very effective tool. You can essentially confirm locations of players by sending out a Hologram and waiting to see if they shoot it. Let's say you're on Countdown with the other team 3 down and you were thinking about pulling their flag, but you're worried their last guy is on your 3rd watching their flag. Sending out a Hologram as if it were going to pick up the flag can make that player fire or nade, alerting you not to attempt a pull. If your Hologram crosses the room safely, you can assume it's safe to make the pull and proceed with a cap.



Hopefully I've at least opened some eyes to the possibility of Hologram as a competitive pickup and interest someone enough to place a Hologram or two in their settings. I've been in love with Hologram's tactical techniques since release, so I hope to see it get its deserved spot in competitive settings as the tricky and clever pickup I know it to be.

Cool post, could you post it in the MLG thread also so people get to see what you are saying?

Yeah, I had already linked it, but I just added the whole quote since people are lazy. lol

I'd just like to chime in and say, I think keeping evade and sprint out of the game is best. What the jetpack offers doesn't really hurt the flow of gameplay, especially since you're increasing its respawn timer. But I feel evade is an even bigger issue than sprint, ESPECIALLY if sprint is removed.

I agree with basically all of your v1 settings, regarding power-up use (only camo, OS, and jetpack, no sprint or evade) player speed at 120%, adding back the shotgun, etc. The only thing I'm not completely, 100% sure of is 4sk over 5sk.

On the one hand, I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy that an individual should have a much bigger role in Halo than has been the case in H3 and Reach up to now. Teamwork should be what decides the game between teams of similarly skilled players, but individual skill should have a heavy emphasis. A really good player going into the MLG playlist alone should be able to somewhat carry a team of lesser players against a To4 who isn't as good as that one individual, just like he could in H2 and CE. And also, even in matches between similarly skilled players, if someone is on fire, it should have a noticeable impact, and not require power weapons to do so. In CE and H2, I could wreck people without ever grabbing a power weapon, but grabbing them made it that much easier. A strong starter weapon lets a great player shine no matter who has what.

But on the other hand, what qualifies as more important regarding individual skill: shot, or map awareness? It could be argued that 5sk has a higher skill cap in actual gunfights, due to having to keep your aim consistent for a slightly longer period of time. But with 4sk, a smart player who flanks can do a ton of damage before being reacted to. And even with aiming, a missed shot on 4sk is much more critical than a missed shot on 5sk.

Overall, I'd agree that 4sk is the way to go for now, because I think smarts and awareness need to play a bigger role, but they should both certainly be tested out. Especially once the CE maps are made available.

Keep up the good work guys! You have my full support, and as soon as things settle down a little bit for me, I'll certainly be down for helping with the testing and hands on feedback. I haven't played much Reach the last several months and I have pretty bad internet, so you'll have to bear with me at first, but I'm actually quite individually skilled and smart at all Halo's when I get warmed up. I'm very experienced with the old Halo games, have a good understanding of what made them better, and I'm not rude either, so maybe my feedback could be of some use to you.

- xX DeaTHCoiL

I like the hologram. That said, I don't know if it is really going to be very useful and neutral points on many maps are valuable as we're trying to expand sandbox and powerups to promote movement and I don't think Holo would be useful enough to fill this role(I tested sprint in this role thoroughly and it failed miserably, lol). We could put 2 on maps but it may be too much. Also there is the melee eating thing.

Bottom line, I've got my work cut out for me as it is, maybe sometime after CEA is released and the pressure is releaved a bit I could work on something with Holos though.

That said, I encourage anyone that wants a specific feature tested out to make your own attempt to balance it out. Just contact me, I'll look at it, and we'll get it posted up as a test variant in one of the map threads.

I really think the Over shield needs to be looked at, the current custom power up isn't very effective. I also think another custom power up could add a great deal to gameplay with "double damage". The custom power up would work much like the current over shield with a forced color and would give the player double damage for 30 seconds, i think this could have a great impact on gameplay and map control.

Synthet1X wrote:I really think the Over shield needs to be looked at, the current custom power up isn't very effective. I also think another custom power up could add a great deal to gameplay with "double damage". The custom power up would work much like the current over shield with a forced color and would give the player double damage for 30 seconds, i think this could have a great impact on gameplay and map control.

This was tried in Halo 3 (called Damage Amplifier, or Damp for short). It's largely ineffective because teams fighting over power ups often take damage so it was rare for the person to even survive with the Damp. Even when they did survive, it's still way too easy to get killed by nades or power weapons for it to be useful enough.

While I agree that Hologram does have some great uses, I think that its unlimited use does cause it to add more annoyance to gameplay rather than usefulness.

If it had limited uses, it would get used less, and people would fall for it more because they wouldnt be as desensitized to it as players are when holo is unlimited. The player with it would also be encouraged to actually think of a good use for it, instead of spamming it because he only has a few shots.

I understand your argument about how spamming it just makes you trackable, but sometimes it just doesnt work like that. For example I could run behind some cover, send it one way and run the other. When you see the holo you have no idea if its a fresh one or an older one, and no idea if I ran the same way, opposite, or perpendicular to the holo.
And on top of that, holos all over the map are just plain annoying, it is really easy to tell a holo (they glow blue and flicker) and they just clog up the map and become frustrating.

Also I think we already have enough toys to play with:
Sniper
Rockets
Grenade Launcher
Shotgun
PP
CEA Pistol (soon)
Real OS
Camo
Jetpack
Maybe concussion rifle (in testing)
Maybe focus rifle (in testing)

There has to be a limit to how many toys we use other wise things will start to get too chaotic. And there has to be some sense of uniform between maps; cant have like camo, needler, plasma rifle, fuel rod on one map, then sniper, shotgun, pistol, AR on another. They need to flow to promote learning how to use each weapon and getting used to the sandbox (whats the use of learning to use the needler if its only on one map, you know?)

I did some actual testing with some of the things we talked about(30s drop spawns on multiple weapons) 1 minute OS stuff like that and I honestly loved it. I think PP is almost useless though. I'm thinking replace PP with Focus rifle, keep concussion(people complain about it but that just means it's doing its job, same with OS) keep shotty. These weapons with snipe on fast drop spawns(1clip) gives us a shield ripper/anti-os/beatdown weapn, a strategic weapon, a cqc, and a long range in the sandbox.

Then Rockets, GL, OS, Camo, and snipe can be used as power weapons in various combinations while keeping to the rule of 3.

Rockets 2 min, GL 1 or 2, OS 1, Camo 1 or 2, snipe 1 or 2 with modified clip size.

this is my current v2 vision(or close to it depending on testing). I'm going to have some test variants ready by the end of the week.

Ender wrote:

Synthet1X wrote:I really think the Over shield needs to be looked at, the current custom power up isn't very effective. I also think another custom power up could add a great deal to gameplay with "double damage". The custom power up would work much like the current over shield with a forced color and would give the player double damage for 30 seconds, i think this could have a great impact on gameplay and map control.

This was tried in Halo 3 (called Damage Amplifier, or Damp for short). It's largely ineffective because teams fighting over power ups often take damage so it was rare for the person to even survive with the Damp. Even when they did survive, it's still way too easy to get killed by nades or power weapons for it to be useful enough.

I think damage resistance+increased damage modifier would be a sweet powerup. I'd test that for sure.

One thing I've noticed is that Snipe has (happily) become more of a special purpose pickup on some maps, just like it was in CE. Some people grab it and blain with it, but it's really just another tool that great players use to keep the other team on spawn. It's not a game-changing power weapon, it's just another thing you can pull out of your pocket, right next to the shotgun.

That means rockets, GL and powerups are left as the pickups that gameplay pivots around. As much as I love the GL, I don't see people clamoring for it nearly as much as rockets. It definitely deserves a 1 min timer with 4 grenades. Rockets are much more convincing, but we're all aware of the weaknesses inherent with the powerups at our disposal. This overall weakness may be one of our major obstacles to overcome. The solution seems to be an OS that's truly worth fighting over, but not rage-inducing. We really need to get that right.

Sebastian wrote:One thing I've noticed is that Snipe has (happily) become more of a special purpose pickup on some maps, just like it was in CE. Some people grab it and blain with it, but it's really just another tool that great players use to keep the other team on spawn. It's not a game-changing power weapon, it's just another thing you can pull out of your pocket, right next to the shotgun.

That means rockets, GL and powerups are left as the pickups that gameplay pivots around. As much as I love the GL, I don't see people clamoring for it nearly as much as rockets. It definitely deserves a 1 min timer with 4 grenades. Rockets are much more convincing, but we're all aware of the weaknesses inherent with the powerups at our disposal. This overall weakness may be one of our major obstacles to overcome. The solution seems to be an OS that's truly worth fighting over, but not rage-inducing. We really need to get that right.

well said all around, I think on some maps(Sanctuary) sniper can still be worthwhile as a power weapon. In general though, it really isn't and while we agree that's a good thing I guarantee strong resistence to it at first. I agree on GL too. Camo is the biggest question mark in my mind right now.

Thoughts on removing powerups completely. Every powerup that is possible forces compromises that not everyone deems acceptable. My only logical conclusion is to try settings without powerup. This begs the question, can we force player movement with weapons only? I think the answer is yes. Rockets on a 2 minute timer force considerable movement by themselves. I'd say GL and Sniper will also force movement in many maps and Shotgun in some.

Also, this brings up the thought that with powerups being removed we could use sprint in the stead of evade and replace sword with shotgun. This pair could prove difficult to obtain but desirable enough to produce lots of movement. And lets not fool ourselves into thinking sprint has no gameplay benefits, in small doses I think sprint is actually a pretty good thing. Thoughts on this?

Current GoldPRO Sandbox

Power weapons

Rockets
Gold OS
Camo

Strategic pick ups
Sniper
Grenade Launcher
Shotgun
Plasma Pistol
Jet Pack

You'll notice that Snipers and GLs are not currently being viewed as power weapons. With the fast kill times of or the 4sk DMR these weapons no longer demand map movement and attension the way they once did in MLG gametypes and balancing them similarly would be a flaw imo.

I find this sandbox to offer variety while avoiding redundancy and promoting strategic gameplay. It's a good balance. But my opinion is not the only one that matters and I want to hear what everyone else has to say about Sandbox ideas and what should/shouldn't be included.